June 17, 2026

Part 4 | 50 Shades of Evil: Washington - Ted Bundy

Part 4 | 50 Shades of Evil: Washington - Ted Bundy

Part 4 of a 4 part series Jim Chapman brings you into the shadows of one of America’s most notorious serial killers: Ted Bundy. This episode covers Bundy’s Florida trials, including the Chi Omega and Kimberly Leach cases, both ending in death...

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Season 9
Part 4 of a 4 part series
Jim Chapman brings you into the shadows of one of America’s most notorious serial killers: Ted Bundy.
This episode covers Bundy’s Florida trials, including the Chi Omega and Kimberly Leach cases, both ending in death sentences. It also follows his time on death row, marriage, daughter, final interview, and execution.

Behind the handsome face, law-school smile, and easy charm lurked a predator who terrorized the United States from 1974-1978. From his first known murders in Washington state to his cross-country killing spree, daring prison escapes, and final rampage in Florida, Bundy left behind a trail of at least thirty confirmed victims— young women who never stood a chance against his calculated manipulation.

Jim examines how a seemingly ordinary man used his intelligence, good looks, and fake casts and crutches to lure victims into his Volkswagen Beetle, and how he repeatedly slipped through the fingers of law enforcement. You’ll hear about the shocking courtroom moments, the media circus that turned him into a celebrity monster, and the psychological profile that still fascinates criminologists today. From his troubled childhood to his final days on death row, this is the complete, unflinching story of Ted Bundy—the charming killer whose crimes changed the way America hunts monsters.

Warning: This episode contains graphic descriptions of violence and sexual assault. Listener discretion is strongly advised.

Chapters
07:06 Trial Begins
09:54 The Bite Mark Breakthrough
18:59 TV Circus Around Bundy
22:01 Kimberly Leach Trial
27:12 Death Row Manipulation
28:05 Prison Marriage Secret
31:46 Execution Day Arrives
34:46 Bundy's Lasting Evil
37:24 Final Interview Begins

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WEBVTT

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Welcome back.

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I am your host, Jim Chapman, and today I am

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continuing fifty Shades of Evil Washington, Ted Bundy. Now, when

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I left you last week, I detailed the capture of

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Ted Bundy in Pensacola, Florida, after murdering some thirty women

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across five states and escaping from jail twice. That's where

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we're going to pick up today with this final episode

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in the Ted Bundy saga, and the monster was finally

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in chains. What followed were two of the most bizarre,

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most televised, most psychologically disturbing trials in American legal history.

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Ted Bundy didn't just get to court. He turned the

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courtroom into his personal stage, a glittering arena where he

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could perform, manipulate, charm, and remind the entire world that

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even behind bars, he was still the one in control

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and even before the trials. Shortly after he was arrested,

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an indictment came out for the Florida State Sorority House murders,

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and he, of course would perform for those cameras. Now

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I want you to picture this, the Sheriff of Leon County, Florida,

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King Cassaris. He's set to read that indictment to the

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media and also to Bundy in front of news cameras

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in the county jail. He summons Bundy from his cell

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to read these charges to him publicly. Now Bundy steps

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off the elevator, where this wild exchange takes place in

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front of the whole world, news cameras everywhere, and I

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think it really paints a picture of the arrogance of Bundy.

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Listen to this.

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What do we have you're kim Let's see. You always

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say an indictment? All right? Why don't you read it

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to you? You're a got it for election, aren't you.

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Mister ain't got it, didn't you? Mister Bundy told me

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that you told him that you're going to get me.

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He said he was going to get Okay, you've got

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the indictment. It's all you're gonna get. Let's read it.

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Let's go, Theodore Robert Bundy.

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You were charged indictment two counts burglary and the u

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two counts murder in the first degree, three counts attempted

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murder in the first degree, in the name of and

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by the authority of the State of Florida. The Grand

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Jurys of the State of Florida and paneled have sworn

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to inquire and true presentment making in for the County

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of Leon. Upon thereros do present that Theodore Robert Bundy,

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on the fifteenth day of January nineteen seventy eight, and

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Leon County, Florida, did then, in their unlawfully enter or

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remain in a structure located at six sixty one West

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Jefferson Street, the dwelling of Karen Chandler and or Kathy Kleiner,

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with the attempt to commit the offensive battery therein it

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in the course of committing such burglary, that said Theodore

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Robert Bundy did make an assault upon Karen Chandler and

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or Cathy Planner contrary to Section eight ten oh two

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Florida Statutes, and Your Grand George, being President Seig Court

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further gives the Court to be informed and understand that

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Theodore Robert Bundy, on the fifteenth day of January nineteen

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seventy eight, in Leon County, Florida, did then in there

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unlawfully kill a human being two whit Margaret Bowman, by

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strangling and or beating her, And said killing was perpetrated

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by said Theodore Robert Bundy from or with a premeditated

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design or attempt to affect the death of said Margaret Bowman,

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contrary to section seven eighty two oh four Florida Statutes,

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and your grand Juristory and President said Court further gives

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the Court to be informed and understand the Theodore Robert Bundy,

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on the fifteenth.

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Day of January nineteen seventy.

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Eight, Leon County, Florida, did then, in their unlawfully kill

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a human beings too Whit Lisa Levy, by strangling and

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or beating her, And said killing was perpetrated by said

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Theodore Robert Bundy from or with a premeditated design or

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intent to.

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Affect the death of said Lisa Levy. My chance to

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talk to press contrary to section seven eighty two oh

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for Florida Statute. I'll plead not guilty right now, and your.

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Grand jurors being President said Court, further gives the Court

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to be informed and understand the Theodore Robert Bundy, on

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the fifteenth day of January and Leon County did then,

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in their unlawfully attempt to kill a human being two

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Whit Cameron Karen Chandler, by beating her about the head

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annoyingly or intentionally causing great bodley harm and set attempts

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was perpetrated by said Theodore Robert Bundy from or with

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a premeditated design or intent to affect the death of

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or said Karen Chandler, contrary to Section.

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Seven seventy seven O four seven seven eighty two oh

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fourth Florida Statutes.

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And your grand Jurors being President, and said Court further

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give the Court to be informed and understand the Theodore

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Robert Bundy, on the fifteenth day of January, Leon County, Florida, did, then,

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in their unlawfully attempt to.

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Kill a human being two wit.

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Kathy Kleiner by beating her about the head annoyingly or intentionally,

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caused great bodley harm, and set attempt was perpetrated by

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said Theodore Robert Bundy from or with the premeditative designer

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attempt affect the death of said Kathy Kleiner, contrary to

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section seven seven seven oh four seven eight two h

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fourth Florida Statutes.

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And your grand.

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Jewors being President and Sage Court further give the Court

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to be informed and understanding that Theodore Robert Bundy, on

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the fifteenth day January, in Leon County Florida, did then,

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in their unlawfully enter will remain in a structure located

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at four to thirty one A Dunwoodie, the dwelling of

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Cheryl Thomas, with the intent to commit the offensive battery therein,

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and the course of committing such burglary, that said Theodore

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Robert Bundy did make an assault upon Cheryl Thomas, contrary

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to Section eight ten oh two at Florida Statutes. And

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your Grand Jewurs being President in said court, further give

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the Court to be informed and understand the Theodore Robert Bundy,

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on the fifteenth day of January nineteen seventy eight, in

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Leon County, Florida, did then, in their unlawfully attempt to

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kill a human being too wech Cheryl Thomas by beating

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her about the head and knowingly are intentionally causing great

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body harm. And said attempt was perpetrated by said Theodore

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Robert Bundy from or with a premeditated design or intent

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to affect the death of said Cheryl Thomas, contrary to

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section seven seven four and seven eight two four, Florida Statutes,

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contrary to the form of the statute and fruch case

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made and provided against the peace and dignity of the

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State of Florida.

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That is the indictment handed down by the grand jury.

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This is the capist for your arrest for burglary of

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the dwelling, two counts, murdered first degree two counts, attempted

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murder of first degree three counts.

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I am commanded to keep you in safe custody and bring.

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You before the spring term of the Circuit Court in

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nineteen seventy eight too, for the pending court.

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Of this county for those charges that I just read

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to you in case number seventy eight.

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That's six seventy Stay of Florida birg versus Theodore Robert Bundy.

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Is that my cough?

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No, it does not your tough We have your company.

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You how the case is, you'll get that. I talked

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to the press.

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I mean we've had our chance, We've we've displayed the prisoner.

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Now I think it's pardon.

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I think that well. Listen, I've been taking in isolation

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for six months, have been kept away from the press.

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I've been buried by you. You've been talking to six months.

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I think it's my turn that all right.

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We got a quarter of that you do.

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There won't be any press. Sure there won't be any

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press interviews. You've given them out. I'm I'm gagged. You're

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calorider will.

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Reach her, simply wild exchange between those two. Now, that

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first trial was for the ki Omega Sorority House murders,

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and it started on June twenty eighth of nineteen seventy nine.

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It was a.

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Sweltering Miami courtroom that was packed to capacity. Reporters with

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jams shoulder to shoulder in the back rows, their notebooks open.

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Television cameras would line the hallway outside, and the families

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of the victims would sit in the front rows. Mother's

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clutching crumpled tissues, fathers staring straight ahead with hallow eyes,

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and sisters and brothers trying not to break down every

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time the defendant's name was spoken. Margaret Bowman's mother sat rigid,

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her hands folded so tightly that it turned her knuckles white.

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Lisa Levey's parents held each other as if one of

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them they collapse if they let go. And there at

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the defense table. Since Ted Bundy, he had insisted on

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representing himself, no high powered attorney, just Theodore Robert Bundy,

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law student, former Republican volunteer and the man that was

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accused of bludgeoning two women to death in their own beds.

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He wore a carefully chosen three piece suit, His hair

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was perfectly combed, his face was clean shaven, and he

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looked exactly like the kind of young man any parent

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would want their daughter to bring home for dinner. Honestly,

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he would smile at the jury, wink at the court transcriptionist,

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and he would stand up during the proceedings and pace

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the floor like a seasoned trial lawyer. He would gesture

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dramatically with his hands, as if this were some elaborate

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debate club exercise instead of a murder trial for the

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most savage crimes that Florida had ever seen at this point,

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and that he had personally committed. His narcissism was on

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full grotesque display from the very first day. He would

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cross examine witnesses himself, leaning forward with a calm, educated voice,

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the same one that he used to lure these girls

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into his volkswagen. He would object to evidence with flair,

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He would argue legal technicalities with the judge as though

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they were old college roommates, and at one point he

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actually flirted openly with a female reporter sitting in the gallery.

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During breaks, he would check casually in the courtroom with staff,

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crack small jokes, sign autographs for fans, and yes, he

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probably had more fans than any other serial killer in history.

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But Ted Bundy had one major problem. The evidence against

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him was overwhelming. Forensic experts would take the stand and

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describe the bitemark and pressure left on Lisa Levy's breast

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inner buttocks, which really were the key to this entire case,

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in a major mistake that Bundy made because he left

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a deep bite impression on her that could be compared

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to his own bite and brushing. Which this is so

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important for the prosecution that I'm going to go ahead

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and I'm going to play you a clip now of

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the Leon County Sheriff discussing how they were able to

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obtain Bundy's bite and brushing.

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Listen to this now.

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I focused on the bike marks because I knew they

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had potential, but they weren't used in Cord at the time.

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I had to figure a way to first preserve them.

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I worked with medical staff at the hospital, forensic individuals.

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I talked to a forensic odentologist about them. But then

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I knew I needed an excit implar. I needed his

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teeth marks, and that became I think it consumed me.

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How can I get them? We tried everything in terms

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of We knew that if we gave him an apple,

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for example, and he bit into it and left the core,

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we may have some impression, some bite that could be compared.

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It was interesting because he talked to the inmate in

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the cell next to him through a little vent, and

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he said, I wonder why they keep giving me different

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kinds of fruit.

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We gave him different kinds.

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Of fruit because we weren't sure which one the core

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would leave the best bite impression, and that inmate said,

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you're getting fruit.

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I don't get any fruit.

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And I think he became suspicious that something was going

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on with that because he quit eating his fruit. Governor

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asked you, who was the governor at the time, worked

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very closely with me. I went to his church on

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a Sunday morning after the crimes occurred. I waited for

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him outside. I said, Governor, I need your help. He

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put his arm around me and he said, Sheriff, what

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do you need? I said, I need you to just

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simply clear the way for me with the state lab

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When I need something. I want you to help me

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get what I needed. And he said, you just tell

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me what you need, I'll take care of it. So

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I was laying the groundwork politically, scientifically, legally, you know,

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looking at how to do this, and then it struck us.

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It just it hit what about a search warrant for

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his mouth? Well, no one had ever gotten a search

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warrant for somebody's mouth. But I thought, you know, I

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teach search warrants. If we got a search warrant, we

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wouldn't have to tell him, we can just go serve it.

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That would get the bite impression.

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So I got Richard suverro On on board, who was

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the forensic odentologist, Doctor Suverroon out of Coral Gables, Florida.

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And I got my dentist on board, Emery Kane. I

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got my physician involved, and I determined, now we're going

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to bring him to my dental office. And I personally

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went to Ted Bundy cell and I said, and it

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was nighttime, I said, you're coming with me. All of

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a sudden, he had this fear that maybe I'd had

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my limit. I was going to take came out and

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perhaps eliminate him on my own. Of course I would

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never do that. Justice served that way is in proper justice.

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Obviously I would be no better than him. But he

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wasn't sure. This was different. My attitude was different. He

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could tell he was reluctant to come out of his cell.

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I told him to put his brace on.

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I had a special brace developed now called the Bundye

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brace that it took the place of having to worry

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about handcuffs because it didn't allow him to run. It

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locked in place and kept his leg stiff, and it

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was the first time a brace like this had ever

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been used in the country. It was spring loaded so

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that when he would straighten out his leg, you could

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hear that spring pop into place.

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And it was locked.

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And you know, he couldn't take it off because it

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had a lock on it. That way, if he tried

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to run, he'd be running with one stiff flag.

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I told him to put.

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His brace on. He didn't want to, so he got out.

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He came with me. As we're entering the dental office

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from the back door, he starts laughing and I said,

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what's so funny?

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He said, I know why we're here. I said why.

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I didn't realize it, but there was a line of

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photographs up the stairway, and he thought that I brought

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him to a photography studio. He said, you don't have

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a camera good enough to capture my image. You want

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a good picture of me. I said, oh, yes, I

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want a good picture of you. And I escorted him

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up the stairway because he couldn't walk it very well

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with the brace. And then the door opened and there

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sat three men stood, three men with little white smocks

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on and the dental chair behind them.

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And he knew, he knew.

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That was the moment that he came to grips with

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the signature. That's when I realized, yes, I was right.

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He started screaming for his attorney. He was shouting a name.

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He had eighteen attorneys over a period of time, so

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it was it was one of those times when he

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actually had an attorney because he felt he was his

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own attorney. He was the best attorney for him, because

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he thought he knew better than anyone else. He had

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two years of law school, so he felt like, I know,

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he had a degree in criminology a minor in psychology.

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So now he's screaming for his attorney, just like he

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knew exactly what we were going to do. And then

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I told him we're going to take a bite impression,

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and he said, you can't do that, and I said,

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I have a warrant, and I started reading the warrant.

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We read through the warrant for his mouth, and I

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had the judge put in there that we could use

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any and all force reasonably necessary to retrieve any evidence

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that is associated with this case.

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From his mouth.

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And I showed him the contraptions that they use post

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mortem to keep the mouth open when they have to

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do dental work, because they had brought those along.

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Doctor Suberon had those, and he looked at me.

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He sat down in the dental chair, smiled and said,

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can you know I'm not a violent person.

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Do what you need to do.

302
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So, prosecutors would show the jury in this trial in

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large photographs of the UNEs, the jagged edges of his incisors,

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the unique pattern of his dental arch hares found in

305
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the stolen van were matched microscopically to fibers in the

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carpet of that sorority house, blood stains, shoe prints, and

307
00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:19.200
the blood stains. The testimony of the survivors alone was

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devastating Carol Duranch, the only woman who had ever fought

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her way out of his car alive. She took the stand.

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Her voice was steady, but her hands were visibly trembling.

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She pointed directly at Bundy and described the handcuffs snapping shut,

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the crowbar rising in the dim light of the Volkswagen,

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the terror of fighting for her life while he yelled

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at her that she was under arrest. Kathy Kleiner and

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Karen Chandler described the sounds they are in the dark,

316
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the wet, meaty thud of the oak club coming down

317
00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:56.920
again and again. The smell of blood that even to

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that day they said, made them gag. Cheryl Thomas she

319
00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:04.759
could barely speak as she recounted waking up to the

320
00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:09.200
nightmare of her own face being destroyed. The media circus

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surrounding the trial was unlike anything America had ever witnessed.

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Quote ted fever had swept the country. Television cameras were everywhere.

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Network anchors signed off each night with updates from the

324
00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:27.680
Bundy trial. Outside the courthouse, vendors sold ted Bundy for

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President t shirts and buttons. Women would send him love

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letters from the hundreds, some proposing marriage, some offering to

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have his children. Fan clubs would form. Reporters would camp

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on the sidewalks, and they would interview anyone who would

329
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want to talk. Now, while the parents of these dead

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girls sat in the gallery fighting back sobs, the public

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would turn it into what was the hottest soap opera

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on television. That same disarming smile that had once lured

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young women to their deaths was now being broadcast into

334
00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:07.000
living rooms across the nation, turning this serial killer into

335
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a twisted celebrity. On July thirty first, nineteen seventy nine,

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the jury deliberated for less than seven hours before returning

337
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a guilty verdict on all counts, and Bundy's reaction he smiled.

338
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He actually smiled, a slow, satisfied, almost amused smile. The

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00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:34.160
judge sentenced him and did have some parting words for Bundy.

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00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:39.680
I'm not asking for mercy for I find it somewhat

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absurd to ask for mercy for something I did not do.

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So I will be tortured for and will suffer for

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it and receive the pain for that act, but that.

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Or not share the burden for the guilt.

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This cord independent off but in agreement with advisor's sentence

346
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rendered by the jury as hereby imposed death penley upon

347
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the defendant, theodo Robert Bundy.

348
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I carry yourself, young man.

349
00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:08.960
Thank you.

350
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I say that to you, to carry yourself.

351
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It's a tragedy for this court to see.

352
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He is such a total waste.

353
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I think the humanity that I've experienced in this court.

354
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You're a bright young man. You made a good lawyer.

355
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I'd love to have your practice in front of me,

356
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but you want another way, partner.

357
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Two sentences of death, one for each of the murders

358
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of Margaret Bowman and Lisa Levy. And when that gavel

359
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came down, Bundy stood up, thanked the court with kind

360
00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:41.880
of a mocking politeness, and turned toward the camera with

361
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a little wave as if he was signing autographs after

362
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:49.759
a successful performance. While the families of Margaret Bowman and

363
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Lisa Levy left the courtroom in tears, clutching each other

364
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for support, Ted Bundy was already planning his next courtroom stunt,

365
00:21:57.799 --> 00:21:59.839
but it was a second trial that would be the

366
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.599
one that finally broke him. The murder trial of twelve

367
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year old Kimberly Lee started in Orlando on January of

368
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nineteen eighty. The courtroom was smaller than the Kai Omega

369
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Circus in Miami, but the pain inside it was somehow

370
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even more unbearable. The air was thicker, It felt heavier,

371
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as if the weight of an innocent child's death pressed

372
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down on every person that was there. The wooden benches

373
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would creak under the weight of Kimberly's family. Her mother

374
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rigid eyes, red and swollen, clutching a small stuffed animal

375
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her daughter had once loved. Her father stared at the floor,

376
00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:41.880
jaw clinched so tight it looked like it might shatter.

377
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And reporters were there, but they were quieter now, even

378
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:50.240
the media, since this one was different. This wasn't about

379
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a sorority house blood bath. This was about a little

380
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girl who was stolen from her school in broad daylight.

381
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And Ted Bundy once again chose to represent himself. He

382
00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:05.400
sat at the defense table in the same carefully pressed suit,

383
00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:10.440
hair still perfectly combed, same handsome face, turned towards the jury,

384
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but something had shifted. The Kaki charm that had carried

385
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:17.119
him through that first trial looked like it was starting

386
00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:21.200
to crack. He still argued every point, still cross examined,

387
00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:26.160
witnesses with flair still treated the courtroom like his personal stage,

388
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But the evidence was closing in like a noose, and

389
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the prosecution laid out the case with precision. They showed

390
00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:37.640
the jury the exact spot outside Lake City Junior High

391
00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:41.400
where Kimberly had last been seen, the same sidewalk where

392
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she had waved to friends just moments before climbing into

393
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:49.119
that white Dodge van. They presented fibers from the van

394
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:52.960
that matched fibers found on Kimberly's clothing. They introduced by

395
00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:57.400
mark evidence and bloodstains. In most heartbreaking of all, they

396
00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:01.599
called the searchers who had finally found her tiny body

397
00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:04.960
in those remote woods near that old pig pin to

398
00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:09.960
the stand. The medical examiner described injuries in clinical detail,

399
00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:13.000
the blunt forced trauma to her skull, the signs of

400
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:17.119
sexual assault so savage that even hardened detectives had wept

401
00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:20.880
when they saw the photos. The gallery wept openly. Mothers

402
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:24.400
covered their mouths, and fathers looked like they might lunge

403
00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:29.559
across the room. But Bundy never flinched. He objected, he smirked.

404
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:33.279
He tried to charm the female jurors with that same smile.

405
00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:36.400
And even when the judge warned him, even when the

406
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:41.759
evidence painted an unmistakable picture of a monster raping and

407
00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:46.039
murdering a child, Bundy kept performing as if this were

408
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:49.319
some elaborate game that he could win with the right

409
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:53.079
legal maneuver or the right wink at the right moment.

410
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:57.119
And on February twelfth of nineteen eighty, the jury took

411
00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:00.400
less than two hours to reach a guilty vertic. When

412
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.839
the foreman read the words guilty of first degree murder,

413
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:07.000
a sound moved through the courtroom that no one there

414
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:12.160
will ever forget, a collective broken sob from Kimberly's family

415
00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:16.359
that seemed to rise to the very depths of human grief.

416
00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:19.440
Her mother would collapse against her husband. Her father let

417
00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:23.640
out a low animal sound of pure agony. The relief

418
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:28.440
was there, but it was buried under years of unimaginable pain.

419
00:25:28.920 --> 00:25:32.440
And then came the sentencing. Bundy stood up one last time,

420
00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:35.640
still trying to control the narrative. He made a rambling,

421
00:25:35.799 --> 00:25:39.119
self serving statement about the fairness of the trial and

422
00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:41.960
about how the system had failed him, and about how

423
00:25:42.039 --> 00:25:46.119
he was the real victim of circumstance, and the judge,

424
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:50.839
a man who had sat through every horrifying detail, looked

425
00:25:50.839 --> 00:25:55.119
at him with cold disgust, and pronounced the sentence death

426
00:25:55.640 --> 00:26:00.359
by lecture chair. Bunny didn't cry, he didn't beg simply

427
00:26:00.519 --> 00:26:04.359
smiled that same empty, chilling smile and said thank you,

428
00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:06.920
your honor, as if he had just been handed a

429
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:10.799
parking ticket instead of a death warrant for the rape

430
00:26:10.839 --> 00:26:14.480
and murder of a child. The families of his victims

431
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:18.000
had justice, though it was impossible to gain closure. Two

432
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:22.359
death sentences for the Kyomega murtyrs and another for Kimberly

433
00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:26.400
Leech multiple death. The warrants now hung over his head,

434
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:29.400
and the state of Florida had made it clear. Ted

435
00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:33.000
Bundy would die in the electric chair, But even then,

436
00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:37.400
the monster wasn't finished fighting. He would spend the next

437
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:42.480
nine years on death row, filing appeal after appeal, graining interviews,

438
00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:46.640
manipulating the media, and refusing to show even one ounce

439
00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:50.880
of genuine regret, while the parents of his victims aged

440
00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:54.480
under the weight of their grief, while survivors woke up

441
00:26:54.519 --> 00:26:58.759
screaming from nightmares that never fully left them. Ted Bundy

442
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:02.720
sat in a climate controlled cell, eating prison food, reading

443
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:06.000
law books, and still believing he could somehow beat the

444
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:10.519
system one last time. Death row would become his last stage,

445
00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:15.400
his final act of manipulation. Nine long years after that

446
00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:19.079
final death sentence was handed down in the Kimberley Lee trial,

447
00:27:19.559 --> 00:27:23.519
those appeals finally ran out. Ted Bundy had spent the

448
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:28.559
last decade on death row at Florida State Prison, manipulating

449
00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:32.279
everyone around him until the very end. He granted interviews

450
00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:36.359
to journalists, he would dangle the promise of more confessions

451
00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:40.319
in exchange for delays, and he even married a woman

452
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:44.279
who had fallen in love with him years prior. He

453
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:48.319
fathered a child with that woman while behind bars. As

454
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:52.200
crazy as that sounds, he would file appeal after appeal,

455
00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:54.519
each one buying him a little more time in his

456
00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:58.880
climate controlled cell, eating prison food, reading law books, and

457
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:02.960
still believing right up to the last possible second that

458
00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:05.200
his charm might save him.

459
00:28:05.559 --> 00:28:06.240
But it didn't.

460
00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:09.200
And I'm going to deviate for just one second, because

461
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:13.240
it probably shocked you to hear just now that Ted

462
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:17.079
Bundy got married and had a child in prison, and

463
00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:19.079
you may want to hear that story. So I'm going

464
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:21.720
to tell you about Carol Boone, who he would marry

465
00:28:21.799 --> 00:28:24.960
while being in prison. So Bundy had actually known Carol

466
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:28.119
Boom for five years prior to his arrest. They had

467
00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:32.119
met while working together for the Department of Emergency Services

468
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:36.119
in Olympia, Washington. They became fast friends. They stayed in touch,

469
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:41.039
and even though he was arrested for these murders, Boom

470
00:28:41.079 --> 00:28:43.920
would say in interviews during his trial she did not

471
00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:47.960
believe Bundy was a killer, even though obviously the evidence

472
00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:52.160
was overwhelming. Well at the point of his arrest, they

473
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:55.680
wanted to get married, but no one would agree to

474
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:00.079
marry them because everyone knew that Bundy was a psychotic kill,

475
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:04.759
except apparently Boone. So Bundy, despite being a cold blooded killer,

476
00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:07.599
he was also extremely smart, and he comes up with

477
00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:10.319
a plan. He hires a notary to sit in the

478
00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:15.200
courtroom during his trial. Then, because he was representing himself,

479
00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:19.119
he calls Carol Boone to the stand under the pretense

480
00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:22.279
of being a character witness. And while Carol Boone is

481
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:26.880
on the stand, he asked this, and listen closely, because

482
00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:28.599
you know it's seventies TV.

483
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:31.799
Care you will America?

484
00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:36.920
Yes, yes, I want.

485
00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:42.240
Those vows were exchanged in front of a notary and

486
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:46.599
a judge. Under Florida law, the marriage is actually legal

487
00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:52.079
and binding, even though the judge was not aware of it. Now,

488
00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:56.359
they had also had a daughter together, which conjugal visits

489
00:29:56.440 --> 00:29:59.319
they're not allowed in the state of Florida, but according

490
00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:02.039
to Carol Boone, the guards would look the other way

491
00:30:02.359 --> 00:30:05.960
and allow it in those days as it pertained to Bundy.

492
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:08.960
So Carolyn ted they have a daughter. They named the

493
00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:12.400
daughter Rose, and as the story is told, Ted and

494
00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:16.720
Carol were married until nineteen mayby six, when Bundy confessed

495
00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:20.720
to Carol he did indeed commit these murders. And when

496
00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:24.480
she learns that they never spoke or saw each other again.

497
00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:28.640
And where is she today? Well, there are theories, of course,

498
00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:32.000
as to what exactly happened to Rose the daughter. She

499
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:35.000
would be in her forties now, how she spent her youth,

500
00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:38.559
where she went to school, what kinds of friends she made,

501
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:41.680
or what she does for a living. All of that

502
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:46.960
has remained a mystery for obvious reasons. As Ted Bundy's

503
00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:52.759
child chances her high that Rose purposely maintains a low profile.

504
00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:53.319
Now.

505
00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:56.559
Some speculate she changed her name and is living in

506
00:30:56.599 --> 00:31:01.599
Oklahoma as one Abigail Griffin, but nobody knows for sure

507
00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:06.119
now as for Carol Boone. She died in twenty eighteen

508
00:31:06.599 --> 00:31:10.400
in a retirement home in Seattle, Washington. I wanted to

509
00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:13.680
deviate and give you that bit of information, but we

510
00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:18.319
will move on and Bundy he conducted one final interview

511
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:21.799
in an attempt to stay his execution, just two days

512
00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:24.720
from the date, and it was with doctor Dobson, his

513
00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:29.119
longtime psychiatrist, and it may be the most telling interview

514
00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:35.400
of all, very interesting, especially his ability to manipulate. I

515
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:37.920
found it so interesting, as a matter of fact, that

516
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:40.880
at the end of this episode I included it so

517
00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:43.000
you can hear it the same way I did, so

518
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:46.359
if you're interested in that, listen after I write this

519
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:46.839
one up.

520
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:48.440
But we'll get back to it.

521
00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:52.359
On the morning of January twenty fourth, nineteen eighty nine,

522
00:31:52.759 --> 00:31:57.039
the sun rises over Stark, Florida, and outside the prison walls,

523
00:31:57.079 --> 00:32:02.079
a circus had gathered. Vendorsoul quote burn Bundy burned T

524
00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:06.359
shirts and hot dogs to cheering crowds. Hundreds of people

525
00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:11.240
held signs and candles, some laughing, some crying, some simply

526
00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:16.359
standing in silent vigil for their daughters, sisters, or friends

527
00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:20.200
who would never come home. Inside the prison, the atmosphere

528
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:25.599
much quieter, heavier, almost clinical. Guards moved with purpose. The

529
00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:29.599
electric chair, known as Old Sparky waited in a small,

530
00:32:29.799 --> 00:32:35.359
brightly lit execution chamber, its wooden arms worn smooth by

531
00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:39.359
the hands of previous condemned men, and its leather stripes

532
00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:44.440
cracked and stained. At seven o'clock am ted Bundy was

533
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:47.880
led to that chamber. His last meal consisted of medium

534
00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:53.119
rare steak eggs over easy hash Brown's toast with butter, jelly, milk, coffee,

535
00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:56.160
and juice. He had spent the night writing letters and

536
00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:59.799
making last minute phone calls, still trying to control the narrative,

537
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:03.160
even as that clock ticked down, and when the guard

538
00:33:03.319 --> 00:33:08.480
stripped him into the chair, thick leather belts across his chest, arms,

539
00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:12.160
and legs, that metal helmet lowered onto his shaved head,

540
00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:17.000
A black hood pulled over his face. He finally spoke.

541
00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:21.359
His last words were calm, almost blite. Quote, I'd like

542
00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:25.599
to give my love to my family and friends unquote.

543
00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:30.880
No apology, no confession of the full truth, no acknowledgment

544
00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:35.000
of the thirty plus young women whose lives he had stolen,

545
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:38.680
the families he had shattered, the little girl he had

546
00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:43.559
taken from the school yard, just one final empty performance

547
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:47.880
for the cameras he knew were waving outside, And at

548
00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:52.960
seven oh six am, the switch was thrown. Two thousand

549
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:57.000
vaults serveged through his body, his muscles locked, his fists

550
00:33:57.039 --> 00:34:00.839
clenched so tightly the knuckles turned white. Beneath the strips.

551
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:04.799
A thin wisp of smoke rose from the helmet. The

552
00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:08.480
smell of burning flesh and ozone filled the small room.

553
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:14.119
His body would jerk violently, once twice, and then still.

554
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:19.719
The doctors confirmed it at seven sixteen am, Theodore Robert

555
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:25.079
Bundy was dead. Outside the prison walls, the crowd erupted

556
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:29.280
in cheers and applause. Fireworks cracked in the distance. Strangers

557
00:34:29.320 --> 00:34:32.920
would hug each other. Some victims' families wept with a

558
00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:37.880
mixture of relief and exhaustion that no words can properly capture.

559
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:40.960
For the first time in fifteen years, the long nightmare

560
00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:44.159
that had begun with Karen Sparks in that Seattle basement

561
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:48.159
seemed at last to be over. And this is where

562
00:34:48.199 --> 00:34:51.880
the story doesn't really end, because the evil ted Bundy

563
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:55.960
left behind. It didn't die with him in that electric chair.

564
00:34:56.199 --> 00:34:59.559
It lives on in the survivors who still wake up

565
00:34:59.639 --> 00:35:03.159
screen mean from nightmares of a polite stranger with an

566
00:35:03.320 --> 00:35:06.039
arm in a sling. It lives in the parents who

567
00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:09.519
buried their daughters and never got to see them graduate,

568
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:13.239
get married, or hold their own children. It lives in

569
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:16.480
communities that still locked their doors at night because one

570
00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:19.559
man proved that evil could wear the perfect smile and

571
00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:22.519
knock on your door at any hour. It lives in

572
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:27.239
the way we teach our children now. Stranger danger wasn't

573
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:31.239
just a slugan. It was born from the terror Bundy

574
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:36.920
spread from coast to coast. His crimes changed everything. Law

575
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:42.119
enforcement created the Violent Criminal Apprehension Program because the fragmented

576
00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:47.199
jurisdiction by jurisdiction chaos that let him kill across state

577
00:35:47.239 --> 00:35:50.320
lines for years could never be allowed to happen again.

578
00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:55.199
Missing persons reports began to be taken seriously. Bite mark

579
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:59.360
evidence became admissible in court. The public finally learned that

580
00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:02.679
the clean, charming man next door could be far more

581
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:07.599
dangerous than the shadowy figure lurking in an alley. Bundy

582
00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:12.679
didn't just murder women, He murdered trust itself. He taught

583
00:36:12.679 --> 00:36:18.280
an entire generation that appearances can lie, that politeness can

584
00:36:18.320 --> 00:36:22.119
be a weapon, and that the most terrifying monsters well

585
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:25.719
they don't look like monsters at all. He took more

586
00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:28.840
than thirty young lives. No one knows the real number,

587
00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:31.480
but experts say it could be upwards of one hundred.

588
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:35.440
He stole futures that can never be replaced. He left

589
00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:39.199
scars on families that will never fully heal, and even

590
00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:43.679
in death, his evil lingers a warning etched into the

591
00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:47.599
history of crime, a reminder that darkness doesn't always hide

592
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:51.320
in the shadows. Sometimes it walks right up to you

593
00:36:51.800 --> 00:36:56.920
in broad daylight, smiles and asks for help. And that

594
00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:03.000
is the last most fine shade of evil that Ted

595
00:37:03.079 --> 00:37:06.239
Bundy ever shot us. So there you have it, and

596
00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:10.119
if you'd like to listen further to the final interview

597
00:37:10.119 --> 00:37:14.159
from Ted Bundy, I've included it right after this podcast

598
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:18.000
and don't go anywhere for everyone else. Thanks so much

599
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:22.800
for listening to this episode of fifty Shades of Evil.

600
00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:26.599
I am Jim Chapman, much love Ted.

601
00:37:26.679 --> 00:37:29.760
It is about two thirty in the afternoon.

602
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:33.360
You are scheduled to be executed tomorrow morning at seven o'clock.

603
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:37.599
If you don't receive another stay. What is going through

604
00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:41.360
your mind? What thoughts have you had in these last

605
00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:42.000
few days.

606
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:47.840
I will kid you to say that it's something that

607
00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:50.719
I am feel that I am in control of, or

608
00:37:50.840 --> 00:37:53.199
something that I've come to terms with, because I haven't.

609
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:58.880
It's a moment by moment thing. Sometimes I feel very tranquil.

610
00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:04.440
In other times I don't feel tranquil at all. What's

611
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:07.480
going through my mind right now is to use the

612
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:11.159
minutes and hours that I have left as fruitfully as

613
00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:15.840
possible and see what happens. So it helps to to

614
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:17.840
live in the moment, in the in the essence that

615
00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:21.639
we use it productively. So I'm right now, I'm feeling calm,

616
00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:25.000
and I in large part because I'm here with you.

617
00:38:26.360 --> 00:38:31.639
For the record, you are guilty of killing many women

618
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:32.559
and girls.

619
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:36.480
Yes, yes, that's true.

620
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:40.280
Ted, How did it happen? Take me back? What are

621
00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:42.079
the antecedents.

622
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:46.239
Of the behavior that we've seen so much grief, so

623
00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:51.000
much sorrow, so much pain for so many people. Where

624
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:54.079
did it start? How did this moment come about?

625
00:38:56.400 --> 00:38:59.920
That's the question of the hour, and and one that

626
00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:05.239
not only people much more intelligent than I have been

627
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:09.039
working on for uh for years, but one that I've

628
00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:13.960
been working on for years and trying to understand it. Yeah,

629
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:15.760
is there enough time to explain it all?

630
00:39:16.360 --> 00:39:16.440
Uh?

631
00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:19.119
I don't know. I think I understand it though. I

632
00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:23.519
understand what happened to me to the extent that I

633
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:28.199
I I I can see how certain feelings and ideas

634
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:30.320
UH developed in me to the point where I began

635
00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:32.800
to act out on them certain very violent and very

636
00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:34.119
destructive feeling.

637
00:39:34.280 --> 00:39:37.039
Right, let let's go back then to those ruts. First

638
00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:39.800
of all, you, as I understand it, were raised in

639
00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:40.920
what you consider to.

640
00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:42.840
Have been a healthy home.

641
00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:46.679
After you were not physically abused, You were not sexually abused,

642
00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:48.119
you were not emotionally abused.

643
00:39:48.199 --> 00:39:51.719
No, no way. I. And that's part of the tragedy

644
00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:56.360
of this little situation is because UH I grew up

645
00:39:56.360 --> 00:40:00.559
in a wonderful home with two dedicated and loving say

646
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:05.960
one of UH five brothers and sisters. A home where

647
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:08.719
we as our as children were the focus of of

648
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:12.280
my parents' lives, where we regularly attended church. UH two

649
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:15.280
Christian parents who did not drink, they did not smoke.

650
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:18.480
There was no gambling, there was no physical abuse of

651
00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:22.639
fighting in the home. I'm not saying this was leave

652
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:25.599
at the Beaver wasn't well. No, I don't know that

653
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:28.440
such a home exists, but it was a fine, solid

654
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:33.039
Christian home, and nobody uh shuh. I hope no one

655
00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:35.400
will try to take the easy way out and to

656
00:40:35.480 --> 00:40:39.159
try to blame or otherwise accuse my f uh my

657
00:40:39.320 --> 00:40:42.039
family of contributing to this, because uh I know, and

658
00:40:42.119 --> 00:40:44.000
I'm trying to tell you as honestly as I know

659
00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:47.239
how what happened. And I think this is a message

660
00:40:47.239 --> 00:40:50.239
I'm gonna get across. But as a young uh, a

661
00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:53.280
young boy, and I mean the boy of uh twelve

662
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:58.519
or thirteen, certainly that I encountered outside the home again

663
00:40:58.760 --> 00:41:05.119
uh in uh i the local grocery store, the local

664
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:09.920
uh uh drug store, the softcore pornography, what people call softcore.

665
00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:13.639
But as I think I I explained to you last night,

666
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:16.840
doctor Dobson and an anecdote the the as young boys do,

667
00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:21.440
we explored the the back roads and sideways and byways

668
00:41:21.480 --> 00:41:27.840
of our neighborhood, and oftentimes people would dump the garbage

669
00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:29.480
and whatever they were cleaning out of their house, and

670
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:32.679
from time to time we'd come across uh pornographic books

671
00:41:32.679 --> 00:41:36.159
of a harder nature than ah more of uh graphic

672
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:38.320
you might say, a more explicit nature than we would

673
00:41:38.360 --> 00:41:41.440
encounter let's say, in your local grocery store. And this

674
00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:45.599
also included such things as, let's say, detective magazines.

675
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:47.559
And uh more horse violence.

676
00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:50.320
Yes, yes, and I I I And this is something

677
00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:53.840
I think I want to emphasize, is the the the

678
00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:59.800
the most damaging uh uh kinds of pornography. And my again,

679
00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:04.679
I'm I'm talking from personal experience, uh hard, real personal experience.

680
00:42:04.719 --> 00:42:08.000
The most damaging kinds of pornography are those that involved violence,

681
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:12.079
uh and sexual violence. Because the wedding of those two forces,

682
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:15.320
as as I know only too well, brings about behavior

683
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:20.039
that it's just uh hm, is just uh too terrible

684
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:20.840
to describe.

685
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:23.239
Now, walk me through that what was going on in

686
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:24.679
your mind at that time?

687
00:42:24.840 --> 00:42:27.760
Okay, before we go any further, I think it's important

688
00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:31.920
to me and the people, the people believe what I'm

689
00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:37.360
saying to tell you that that I'm not blaming pornography

690
00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:39.800
and not saying that it caused me and to go

691
00:42:39.880 --> 00:42:43.320
out and do certain things. And I take full responsibility

692
00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:45.440
for whatever I've done and all the things that I've done.

693
00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:49.320
That's not the question here. The question A and and

694
00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:53.480
and the issue is how this kind of literature contributed

695
00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:57.039
and helped mold and and shape the kinds of violent

696
00:42:57.079 --> 00:43:01.079
behavior fueled your fatalities. Well in in the beginning, it

697
00:43:01.159 --> 00:43:06.519
fuels this kind of thought process. Then it at a

698
00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:09.559
certain time it's instrumental in what type would say, crystallizing

699
00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:12.480
it make it in making into something which is almost

700
00:43:12.519 --> 00:43:16.559
a like a separate entity inside and that in and

701
00:43:16.599 --> 00:43:18.360
at that point you're at the verge or I was

702
00:43:18.400 --> 00:43:20.440
at the verge of acting out on this, on this

703
00:43:20.559 --> 00:43:22.199
kind of these kinds of things.

704
00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:24.760
I want really wanna understand that you had gone about

705
00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:27.519
as far as you could go in your own fantasy

706
00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:32.639
life with printed material, and you made or printed in

707
00:43:33.639 --> 00:43:34.880
video or film.

708
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:36.800
Or film magazine. Is what happened.

709
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:40.679
And and then there was the urge to take that little

710
00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:43.760
step or a big step over to a physical.

711
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:49.199
Right event, and it happens. It It happened in stages gradually.

712
00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:52.480
It doesn't necessarily not to me at least happen overnight.

713
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:57.320
My experience with i'd say pornography generally, but with the

714
00:43:57.679 --> 00:44:01.079
pornography that deals on a violent level with the sexuality,

715
00:44:02.719 --> 00:44:06.800
is that once you become addicted to it, and I

716
00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:09.719
look at this as a kind of addiction, uh, like

717
00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:12.639
other kinds of addiction, of addiction, you keep I would

718
00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:17.199
keep looking for more pope, more explicit, more graphic signs

719
00:44:17.320 --> 00:44:20.960
of material like an addiction. You keep craving something which

720
00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:25.440
is harder, harder, something which which gives you a greater

721
00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:29.840
uh sense of uh of of uh excitement, until you

722
00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:33.079
reach the point where the pornographamily goes so far, you

723
00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:38.320
reach that jumping off point where you begin to wonder

724
00:44:38.360 --> 00:44:42.960
if if maybe actually doing it will give you that

725
00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:45.519
which is beyond just reading about it or looking at it.

726
00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:48.320
How long did you stay at that point before you

727
00:44:48.440 --> 00:44:49.840
actually assaulted someone?

728
00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:55.440
Well, yeah, you see that is a very delicate point.

729
00:44:55.480 --> 00:44:58.760
I I I I in my own development, and we're

730
00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:01.480
talking about something, we're talking about having reached the point

731
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:04.440
or uh a a gray area that surrounded that point

732
00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:06.920
over a course of it, you know, for year well

733
00:45:06.920 --> 00:45:09.519
I wa, I would say, I would say a couple

734
00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:13.159
of years. And what was I was dealing with? There

735
00:45:13.159 --> 00:45:18.760
were very strong inhibitions against criminal behavior, of violent behavior

736
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:22.000
that had been conditioned into me, bred into me in

737
00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:25.840
my environment, in my neighborhood, in my church, uh, in

738
00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:29.519
my school, things which said no this is wrong. I

739
00:45:29.519 --> 00:45:31.400
mean just I mean even to think of it as wrong,

740
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:33.280
but a l certainly to do what is wrong. And

741
00:45:33.320 --> 00:45:35.480
you're on w I'm on that edge in these the

742
00:45:35.559 --> 00:45:41.039
last they they you might say, the last vestiges of restraint, uh,

743
00:45:41.320 --> 00:45:45.599
the barriers to actually doing something were being tested constantly

744
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:53.039
and assault uh assailed through the kind of fantasy life

745
00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:59.000
that was fueled largely of bi pornography. Do you remember

746
00:45:59.119 --> 00:46:04.480
what pushed you? Do you remember the decision to go

747
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:04.920
for it?

748
00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:08.920
Do you remember where you decided to throw caution to

749
00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:09.719
the wind.

750
00:46:12.039 --> 00:46:17.719
Again When you say pushed, I don't I I know

751
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:20.840
what you're saying. I don't wanna be that I was

752
00:46:21.400 --> 00:46:24.199
that I was some helpless kind of a victim. And

753
00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:29.679
yet uh uh, we're talking about an influence, which that

754
00:46:29.800 --> 00:46:33.119
is the influence of violent types of media and and

755
00:46:33.280 --> 00:46:38.079
violent pornography, which hadn't w was a indispensable link in

756
00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:40.800
the chain of behavior, of the chain of events that

757
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:44.440
led to the behaviors, to the to the dessaults, to

758
00:46:44.519 --> 00:46:49.719
the murderers and what and what have you. It's a

759
00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:56.280
it's a very difficult thing to describe, uh we uh,

760
00:46:56.400 --> 00:47:04.119
the the sensation of the the I uh. Uh of

761
00:47:04.119 --> 00:47:08.719
of reaching that point where you knew where I knew.

762
00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:10.920
That it W.

763
00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:14.039
It was like something had say, snapped that I knew

764
00:47:14.039 --> 00:47:17.639
that uh, that I couldn't control anymore. That these barriers

765
00:47:17.679 --> 00:47:20.800
that that I had had been I had learned as

766
00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:23.679
a child, uh, that had been instilled in me were

767
00:47:23.719 --> 00:47:27.480
not enough to hold me back with respect to seeking

768
00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:29.119
out a and harming somebody.

769
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:32.679
Would it be accurate to call out a uh A frenzy,

770
00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:33.840
A sexual frenzy.

771
00:47:34.039 --> 00:47:36.719
Well, yes, I that's one way to describe it. A

772
00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:46.039
compulsion I A a building up of of this destructive energy.

773
00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:51.400
Uh again U I UH. Another factor here the way

774
00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:54.039
I haven't mentioned as the use of alcohol, but I

775
00:47:54.119 --> 00:47:58.360
think that th What alcohol did uh in conjunction with

776
00:47:58.480 --> 00:48:04.280
let's say my exposure to pornography, was alcohol reduced my inhibitions.

777
00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:09.559
At the same time, the the the fantasy life that

778
00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:13.280
were fueled by pornography, UH eroded them further.

779
00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:16.559
You see, in the early days, you were nearly always

780
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:18.880
about half drunk when you did these things.

781
00:48:18.920 --> 00:48:19.360
Is that right?

782
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:19.679
Yes?

783
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:22.039
Yes? UH?

784
00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:25.719
Was that always true? I?

785
00:48:26.280 --> 00:48:29.960
I would say that that was generally the case almost

786
00:48:29.960 --> 00:48:31.559
w W without saying.

787
00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:32.880
Alright, I if I can understand it.

788
00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:33.079
Now.

789
00:48:33.119 --> 00:48:35.599
There is this battle going on within. There are the

790
00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:38.480
conventions that you've been taught. There's the right and wrong

791
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:40.920
that you learned as a child, and then there is

792
00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:47.639
this this uh unbridled passion UH fueled by your plunge

793
00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:49.719
into hardcore violent pornography.

794
00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:52.079
And those things are at war with each other.

795
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:56.519
Yes, and then with the UH alcohol diminishing the UH,

796
00:48:56.559 --> 00:48:58.119
the inhibitions.

797
00:48:57.880 --> 00:48:58.880
UH you let go.

798
00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:05.639
Well, I I yes, and to you can summarize it

799
00:49:05.639 --> 00:49:09.800
that way, and that's accurate, certainly, and it it just

800
00:49:09.840 --> 00:49:13.280
occurred to me that some people would would say that, well,

801
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:16.880
I I've seen that stuff and it doesn't do anything

802
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:19.559
to me, And I can understand that. I don't n

803
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:25.360
Virtually everyone uh can be exposed to so called pornography

804
00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:27.400
and while they were aroused to it to one degree

805
00:49:27.440 --> 00:49:29.039
or another and not go out and do anything wrong.

806
00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:31.679
Now, addictions are like that they affect some people more

807
00:49:31.719 --> 00:49:34.199
than they affect others. Well, that there is a percentage

808
00:49:34.199 --> 00:49:38.280
of people affected by hardcore pornography in a very violent way,

809
00:49:38.320 --> 00:49:39.719
and you're obviously one of 'em.

810
00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:42.079
That was a major component. And I don't know why

811
00:49:42.119 --> 00:49:45.480
I was vul uh vulnerable to it. All I know

812
00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:48.760
is that uh that it uh that it had an

813
00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:52.000
uh an impact on me. Uh that was just so

814
00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:57.920
uh central to the development of the violent behavior that

815
00:49:57.960 --> 00:49:58.719
I engaged in.

816
00:49:59.480 --> 00:50:02.800
Ted After sure, you committed your first murder, what was

817
00:50:02.840 --> 00:50:04.920
the emotional effect on you?

818
00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:06.920
What happened in the days after that?

819
00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:15.480
Well?

820
00:50:15.480 --> 00:50:22.159
Again this please understand that that even all these years later,

821
00:50:22.280 --> 00:50:25.039
it's very difficult to talk about it, and I and

822
00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:29.199
and reliving it through talking about it. That it's uh

823
00:50:29.480 --> 00:50:31.440
difficult to say the least, But I want you to

824
00:50:31.559 --> 00:50:36.559
understand the what happened. It was like coming out of

825
00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:43.119
some kind of horrible trance or or dream. I could

826
00:50:43.159 --> 00:50:46.960
only liken it too after you know, I don't want

827
00:50:47.039 --> 00:50:51.280
to over dramatize it, but to have been possessed by

828
00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:54.639
something so awful and so alien, and then the next

829
00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:58.440
morning wake up from it, remember what happened, and realize

830
00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:01.760
that basically, I mean the in the eyes of the law,

831
00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:04.639
certainly in the eyes of God, you're responsible a a

832
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:07.960
to have to wake up in the morning and and

833
00:51:08.039 --> 00:51:12.320
realize what I had done and with a clear mind

834
00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:18.199
and all my essential moral and ethical feelings intact at

835
00:51:18.199 --> 00:51:26.639
that moment. Uh uh absolutely horrified that I was capable

836
00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:29.000
of doing something like that.

837
00:51:29.480 --> 00:51:33.639
You really hadn't known that before. Uh.

838
00:51:33.760 --> 00:51:43.840
There is just absolutely no way to describe first the

839
00:51:43.960 --> 00:51:48.320
brutal urge to do that kind of thing, and then

840
00:51:49.360 --> 00:51:52.119
what happens is once it it has been more or

841
00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:56.880
less satisfied and received you might say U or spent

842
00:51:57.400 --> 00:52:01.280
that that sense that a kind of energy level receives,

843
00:52:01.719 --> 00:52:05.079
and basically I became my myself again. I And I

844
00:52:05.119 --> 00:52:07.159
want people to understand this too, And I'm not saying

845
00:52:07.159 --> 00:52:11.679
this gratuitously because it's important people understand this that basically

846
00:52:11.920 --> 00:52:16.719
I was a normal person, uh I I I wasn't

847
00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:19.559
uh some guy hanging out uh at bars or a

848
00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:22.719
bum or I wasn't a pervert in the sense that

849
00:52:22.880 --> 00:52:24.920
you know, people look at somebody and say, I know

850
00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:26.960
there's something wrong with him and just tell I mean

851
00:52:27.039 --> 00:52:30.639
I I I W was essentially a normal person. I

852
00:52:30.679 --> 00:52:34.239
had good friends, I I UH, I live a normal

853
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:39.159
life except for this one small but very potent and

854
00:52:39.320 --> 00:52:42.039
very destructive segment of it that I kept very secret

855
00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:44.440
and very close to myself and didn't let let anybody

856
00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:47.639
know about it. And part of the shock and horror

857
00:52:47.639 --> 00:52:50.679
for my dear friends and family wa years ago when

858
00:52:50.719 --> 00:52:53.159
I was first arrested, was that they just there was

859
00:52:53.239 --> 00:52:55.440
no clue. They looked at me, and they looked at

860
00:52:55.480 --> 00:52:59.199
the you know, the the all American boy, and I'm uh,

861
00:52:59.239 --> 00:53:01.280
I mean that wasn't per p, but it's I I

862
00:53:01.559 --> 00:53:06.440
wanna be. I I was okay, okay, I I was

863
00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:13.320
a The basic humanity and basic spirit that God gave

864
00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:17.119
me was intact, but unfortunately it became overwhelmed at times.

865
00:53:17.639 --> 00:53:20.440
I think people need to recognize that it's not some

866
00:53:20.559 --> 00:53:24.639
kind of the the The those of us who are

867
00:53:24.920 --> 00:53:30.679
who have been so much influenced by violence in the media,

868
00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:36.800
in particular pornographic violence, are not some kinds of inherent monsters.

869
00:53:37.119 --> 00:53:40.440
We are your sons, and we are your husbands, and

870
00:53:41.800 --> 00:53:45.559
we grew up in regular families, and pornography can reach

871
00:53:45.599 --> 00:53:47.719
out and snatch a kid out of any house. Today.

872
00:53:48.119 --> 00:53:50.400
He A snatched me out of my home. It snatched

873
00:53:50.440 --> 00:53:56.360
me out of my home twenty thirty years ago. A A.

874
00:53:56.440 --> 00:54:01.880
And as diligent as my parents were, uh, and they

875
00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:07.199
were diligent in protecting their children, and as good a

876
00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:09.559
Christian home as we had, and we had a wonderful

877
00:54:09.599 --> 00:54:14.599
Christian home. Uh, there is no protection against the kinds

878
00:54:14.639 --> 00:54:17.599
that the kinds of influences that are loose in the

879
00:54:17.639 --> 00:54:20.719
society that that that tolerates m.

880
00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:26.079
You you feel this really deeply, don't you?

881
00:54:28.039 --> 00:54:32.559
Ten Outside these walls right now, there are several hundred

882
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:36.679
reporters that wanted to talk to you, yeh, And you

883
00:54:36.840 --> 00:54:40.519
ask me to come here from California because you had

884
00:54:40.559 --> 00:54:41.679
something you wanted to say.

885
00:54:42.639 --> 00:54:44.239
This hour that.

886
00:54:44.159 --> 00:54:49.519
We have together, Uh is not just an interview with

887
00:54:49.679 --> 00:54:52.920
a man who's scheduled to die tomorrow morning. I am

888
00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:56.840
here and you're here r because of this message that

889
00:54:56.880 --> 00:55:01.400
you're talking about. Right here, you really feel that hard

890
00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:05.559
core porography and the doorway to it, soft corporography is

891
00:55:05.639 --> 00:55:10.679
doing untold damage to other people, in causing other women

892
00:55:11.480 --> 00:55:15.079
to be abused and killed the way you did ours.

893
00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:19.039
Listen, I I'm no social scientists, and I haven't done

894
00:55:19.039 --> 00:55:21.360
a survey. I mean, I I don't pretend that I

895
00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:25.960
know what John Q Citizen thinks about this. But I've

896
00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:30.760
lived in prison for a long time now, and I've

897
00:55:30.800 --> 00:55:33.119
met a lot of men who were motivated to commit

898
00:55:33.199 --> 00:55:38.519
violence just like me, and without exception, every one of

899
00:55:38.559 --> 00:55:43.760
them was deeply involved in pornography, without question, without exception,

900
00:55:44.320 --> 00:55:48.519
deeply influenced and consumed by an addiction to pornography, There's

901
00:55:48.599 --> 00:55:52.440
no question about it. The FBI's own study on serial

902
00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:58.639
homicide shows that the most common interests among serial killers

903
00:55:59.280 --> 00:56:03.599
is pornography. That's true, and it's and it's real. It's true.

904
00:56:04.199 --> 00:56:04.440
Ted.

905
00:56:04.519 --> 00:56:09.159
What would your life have been like without that influence?

906
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:15.800
You can only speculate.

907
00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:20.719
Yeah, well, I I know it would've been far better,

908
00:56:20.800 --> 00:56:24.360
not just for me, and and it's a excuse me

909
00:56:24.440 --> 00:56:26.960
for being so self centered here, it would have been

910
00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:28.760
a lot better for me and lots of other people.

911
00:56:28.960 --> 00:56:33.119
I know that lots of other innocent people, victims and families.

912
00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:35.920
It would have been a lot better. There's no question

913
00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:38.679
but that it would have been uh ah a A

914
00:56:38.519 --> 00:56:41.679
a fuller life. Uh, it's certainly in the a life

915
00:56:41.719 --> 00:56:46.639
that would not have involved I'm absolutely certain would not

916
00:56:46.679 --> 00:56:50.360
have evolve involved this kind of violence that I have been,

917
00:56:50.920 --> 00:56:51.840
that I have committed.

918
00:56:53.320 --> 00:56:54.400
I'm sure, Ted.

919
00:56:54.440 --> 00:56:57.760
I if uh, you know, if I were able to

920
00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:00.599
ask you the questions that are being asked out there.

921
00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:01.719
Mm uh.

922
00:57:01.760 --> 00:57:04.079
One of the most important as you come down to

923
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:08.960
perhaps your final hours, are you thinking about all those

924
00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:11.360
victims out there and their families.

925
00:57:11.679 --> 00:57:13.199
Well, who are so wounded.

926
00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:16.679
You know, years later, their lives have not returned to normal,

927
00:57:16.719 --> 00:57:18.159
They will never return to normal.

928
00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:21.639
Absolute, are you carrying that load? That weight is the

929
00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:22.760
remorse they are.

930
00:57:27.199 --> 00:57:29.960
Again. I I know that people will accuse me of

931
00:57:30.039 --> 00:57:32.360
being self serving, but we're beyond that now. I mean,

932
00:57:32.360 --> 00:57:36.920
I'm just telling you how I feel. But through God's help,

933
00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:39.559
I have been able to come to the point where

934
00:57:39.599 --> 00:57:44.880
I've much too late, but n better late than never

935
00:57:45.079 --> 00:57:49.719
feel it hurt and the pain that I am responsible for. Yes, absolutely,

936
00:57:50.280 --> 00:57:52.679
In the past few days, myself and a number of

937
00:57:52.679 --> 00:57:58.960
investigators have been talking about unsolved cases uh murders that

938
00:57:59.039 --> 00:58:02.559
I was involved in. And it's hard to it's hard

939
00:58:02.599 --> 00:58:04.920
to talk about all these years later because it revives

940
00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:08.320
in me all those terrible feelings and those thoughts that

941
00:58:08.360 --> 00:58:17.199
I have steadfastly and an and and uh diligently dealt

942
00:58:17.239 --> 00:58:20.320
with and I think successfully with the love of God.

943
00:58:21.519 --> 00:58:23.840
And yet it's reopened that and I've felt the pain,

944
00:58:23.880 --> 00:58:27.119
and I've felt the horror again of all that. And

945
00:58:27.159 --> 00:58:33.679
I can only hope that those who I've harmed, those

946
00:58:33.719 --> 00:58:38.920
who I've caused so much grief, even if they don't

947
00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:48.400
believe my expression of sorrow and remorse, will believe what

948
00:58:48.480 --> 00:58:53.760
I'm saying now that there is loose in their towns

949
00:58:53.800 --> 00:59:03.320
and their communities, people like me today who's dangerous impulses

950
00:59:03.440 --> 00:59:08.800
are being fueled day in and day out by violence

951
00:59:08.920 --> 00:59:12.679
in the media in its various forms, particularly s sexualized violence.

952
00:59:14.440 --> 00:59:17.000
And what scares me a A And let's come into

953
00:59:17.000 --> 00:59:20.079
the present now, because what I'm talking about happened thirty

954
00:59:20.599 --> 00:59:24.079
twenty thirty years ago, that is in my formative stages.

955
00:59:24.639 --> 00:59:27.159
And what scares in the polls me, doctor Dobson, is

956
00:59:27.599 --> 00:59:31.800
when I see what's on cable TV. Some of the movies,

957
00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:34.679
I mean, some of the violence in the movies are

958
00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:38.639
that come into homes today with stuff that they that

959
00:59:38.840 --> 00:59:42.000
they wouldn't show in an X rated adult theaters thirty

960
00:59:42.079 --> 00:59:45.119
years ago. This stuff the slasher movies.

961
00:59:45.159 --> 00:59:46.159
Since you're talking.

962
00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:49.960
About that stuff is I'm telling you from personal experience,

963
00:59:50.400 --> 00:59:57.239
the most that is graphic violence on screen, particularly as

964
00:59:57.280 --> 00:59:59.199
it gets into the home. The children who may be

965
00:59:59.239 --> 01:00:02.840
unattended to or or unaware that they may be a

966
01:00:02.920 --> 01:00:06.639
Ted Bundy who has that that vulnerability to that that

967
01:00:06.679 --> 01:00:09.880
predisposition to be influenced by that kind of behavior, by

968
01:00:09.920 --> 01:00:13.079
that kind of of of uh movie, that kind of violence.

969
01:00:13.599 --> 01:00:17.760
Their kids sitting out there switching the TV dial around

970
01:00:17.800 --> 01:00:19.880
and come upon these movies late at night or I

971
01:00:19.880 --> 01:00:21.719
don't know when they're on, but they're on and any

972
01:00:21.800 --> 01:00:24.559
kid can watch 'em. It's scary when I think what

973
01:00:25.280 --> 01:00:27.559
would have happened to me if I had seen I'm

974
01:00:27.599 --> 01:00:31.000
scary enough, m I mean that I just ran into

975
01:00:31.039 --> 01:00:33.280
stuff outside the home. But T t th to to

976
01:00:33.880 --> 01:00:36.039
know that children are watching that kind of thing today

977
01:00:36.920 --> 01:00:39.480
or can pick up their phone and dial away for

978
01:00:39.599 --> 01:00:43.480
it or send away for it. Uh uh.

979
01:00:43.519 --> 01:00:48.519
Can you help me understand this desensitization process that took place? U?

980
01:00:48.679 --> 01:00:50.039
What was going on in your mind?

981
01:00:50.679 --> 01:00:56.559
Well? By desensitization, I I I describe it in specific terms,

982
01:00:56.679 --> 01:01:02.960
is that they each time I'd harm someone, each time

983
01:01:02.960 --> 01:01:06.480
I'd kill someone, to be an enormous amount of uh

984
01:01:06.719 --> 01:01:10.719
uh n, especially at first, uh enormous amount of of

985
01:01:10.719 --> 01:01:15.280
of horror, guilt remorse afterwards, But then that impulse to

986
01:01:15.320 --> 01:01:18.119
do it again would come back even stronger. Now believe me,

987
01:01:18.159 --> 01:01:21.159
I didn't f I. I. The unique thing about how

988
01:01:21.159 --> 01:01:24.400
this worked, doctor Dobson, is that I still felt in

989
01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:28.199
my regular life, the full range of of guilt and

990
01:01:28.199 --> 01:01:32.079
and uh remorse about other things, UH regret and uh.

991
01:01:32.119 --> 01:01:34.679
You had this compartmentalize.

992
01:01:33.800 --> 01:01:39.679
This compartmentalized very well focused uh uh a very sharply

993
01:01:39.760 --> 01:01:42.159
focused area where i'd it was like a black hole.

994
01:01:42.239 --> 01:01:44.920
It was like a you know, like a crack and

995
01:01:45.039 --> 01:01:48.320
everything that fell into that crack just disappeared. Does that

996
01:01:48.360 --> 01:01:48.760
make sense?

997
01:01:48.800 --> 01:01:49.000
Yeah?

998
01:01:49.000 --> 01:01:50.320
It does. Uh.

999
01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:55.199
I One of the the final uh murders that you committed,

1000
01:01:55.239 --> 01:01:57.920
of course, UH was apparently a little Kimberly.

1001
01:01:57.840 --> 01:01:59.480
Leech twelve years of age.

1002
01:02:00.800 --> 01:02:04.519
I think they the public outcry is greater there because

1003
01:02:04.559 --> 01:02:07.639
an innocent child was taken from a from a playground.

1004
01:02:08.119 --> 01:02:11.159
What did you feel after that? Wha was there?

1005
01:02:12.039 --> 01:02:15.480
Were there they normal emotions three days later? Where were

1006
01:02:15.599 --> 01:02:24.719
you did? I? I can't really talk about that right now.

1007
01:02:25.039 --> 01:02:30.280
That's oh yeah, it's too painful.

1008
01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:35.320
I would like to, uh, I like to be able

1009
01:02:35.320 --> 01:02:41.840
to convey to you what that that uh, that experience

1010
01:02:41.960 --> 01:02:42.320
is like that.

1011
01:02:42.400 --> 01:02:51.920
I can't d I won't able to talk about that. Okay,

1012
01:02:52.360 --> 01:02:55.719
I can't begin to understand. Well, I can try, but

1013
01:02:55.840 --> 01:03:02.760
I'm I'm aware that I can't begin to understand the

1014
01:03:02.840 --> 01:03:08.800
pain that the parents of these of these children that

1015
01:03:08.840 --> 01:03:12.159
I have and these young women that I have harmed,

1016
01:03:12.320 --> 01:03:18.559
feel and I can't d restore really much to them,

1017
01:03:18.719 --> 01:03:21.800
if anything, and I won't pretend to and I don't

1018
01:03:21.840 --> 01:03:24.079
even expect them to forgive me, and I'm not asking

1019
01:03:24.119 --> 01:03:26.639
for it. That that f kind of forgiveness is of God.

1020
01:03:26.719 --> 01:03:29.079
And if they have it, they have it, they don't, well,

1021
01:03:29.440 --> 01:03:30.639
maybe they'll find it someday.

1022
01:03:31.000 --> 01:03:34.239
Do you deserve the punishment the state is inflicted upon you.

1023
01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:40.960
That's a very good question, and I'll I'll answer very

1024
01:03:41.280 --> 01:03:43.880
very honestly. I I don't wanna die. I'm not gonna

1025
01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:49.239
kitch your I'll ki kid you or not. I deserve

1026
01:03:50.000 --> 01:03:54.360
certainly the the the most extreme punishment society has, and

1027
01:03:54.400 --> 01:03:58.840
I deserve. I think society deserves to be protected from

1028
01:03:58.880 --> 01:04:04.159
me and from others life me, that's for sure. I

1029
01:04:04.199 --> 01:04:06.360
think what I h a what I hope will come

1030
01:04:06.400 --> 01:04:09.559
of our discussion is I think society deserves to be

1031
01:04:09.679 --> 01:04:15.519
protected from itself because because if we as as we've

1032
01:04:15.559 --> 01:04:17.960
been talking, there are there are forces that loose in

1033
01:04:17.960 --> 01:04:20.960
in in this country, particularly again uh this kind of

1034
01:04:21.039 --> 01:04:27.960
violent a m of pornography, where on the one hand,

1035
01:04:28.599 --> 01:04:33.239
well meaning decent people will condemn behavior of a Tad

1036
01:04:33.280 --> 01:04:37.320
Bundy while they're walking past a a a a magazine

1037
01:04:37.360 --> 01:04:40.079
rack full of the very kinds of things that send

1038
01:04:40.400 --> 01:04:42.960
young kids down the road to be ted bundies. That's

1039
01:04:42.960 --> 01:04:47.239
the irony we're talking here, not just about more. We're

1040
01:04:47.280 --> 01:04:50.400
talking I'm What I'm talking about is going beyond retribution,

1041
01:04:50.480 --> 01:04:56.679
which is what people want with me, going beyond retribution

1042
01:04:56.760 --> 01:04:59.199
and punishment, because there is no way in the world

1043
01:04:59.679 --> 01:05:04.280
that killing me is going to restore uh, those beautiful

1044
01:05:04.360 --> 01:05:08.280
children of their parents and and and correct an and

1045
01:05:08.519 --> 01:05:11.960
and and soothe the pain. But I'll tell you there

1046
01:05:11.960 --> 01:05:14.400
are lots of other kids playing in streets around this

1047
01:05:14.440 --> 01:05:18.199
country today who are going to be dead tomorrow and

1048
01:05:18.239 --> 01:05:20.440
the next day and the next day and next month

1049
01:05:20.800 --> 01:05:24.159
because other young people are reading the kinds of things

1050
01:05:24.199 --> 01:05:26.280
and seeing the kinds of things that are available in

1051
01:05:26.280 --> 01:05:27.039
the media today.

1052
01:05:27.480 --> 01:05:28.679
Ted. As you would.

1053
01:05:28.480 --> 01:05:31.760
Imagine, there's tremendous cynicism about you on the outside.

1054
01:05:31.800 --> 01:05:33.280
And I suppose for good reason.

1055
01:05:34.599 --> 01:05:36.800
I'm not sure that there's anything that you could say

1056
01:05:36.960 --> 01:05:38.719
that people would uh would believe.

1057
01:05:39.039 --> 01:05:41.400
Some people would believe, yeah, an and uh.

1058
01:05:41.559 --> 01:05:45.480
And yet you told me last night, and I have

1059
01:05:45.599 --> 01:05:48.920
heard this through our mutual friend John Tanner, that you

1060
01:05:49.079 --> 01:05:54.400
have UH accepted the forgiveness of Jesus Christ, and UH

1061
01:05:54.440 --> 01:05:57.079
are a follower and a believer in him. Do you

1062
01:05:57.159 --> 01:06:00.800
draw strength from that, yuh, as you which these final

1063
01:06:00.840 --> 01:06:02.719
hours I do.

1064
01:06:04.280 --> 01:06:08.119
I can't say that being in the valley of the

1065
01:06:08.119 --> 01:06:10.719
Shadow of Death is. It's something that I've become all

1066
01:06:10.800 --> 01:06:12.800
that accustomed to. And then I'm you know, and then

1067
01:06:12.840 --> 01:06:18.480
I'm strong and nothing's bothering me. Listen, it's no fun,

1068
01:06:19.599 --> 01:06:22.920
it's it's you know, it's it's uh. It's gets kind

1069
01:06:22.920 --> 01:06:28.280
of lonely. And yet I have to remind myself that

1070
01:06:28.639 --> 01:06:32.199
every one of us UH will go through to someday

1071
01:06:32.559 --> 01:06:36.840
in one way or another, and countless millions who have

1072
01:06:36.880 --> 01:06:39.119
walked this earth before us have So this is just

1073
01:06:39.159 --> 01:06:43.480
an experience which we all share. And yeah, right,